The Book I Want to Write
The Book I HAD to Write
S2, Ep 5: How Do First-Time Authors Get Over Resistance? with Joelle Hann
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S2, Ep 5: How Do First-Time Authors Get Over Resistance? with Joelle Hann

About this episode

"There's a big gap between the dream and the published book--what's happening there?" asks book coach

(aka the Brooklyn Book Doctor).

Joelle joins host Paul Zakrzewski to talk about why writers face resistance when they start their books, the sense of power that happens when you finish, & the big shifts happening in Big 5 publishing right now.

Looking to season 3, we're going on a journey! We'll be tweaking the show format, quests, and types of guests to provide help & inspiration as you navigate your book writing journey. Have ideas? Drop me a line.

Discussed On This Episode

Insights

  • Writing about your specific topic, like yoga, can provide a lens to explore larger cultural questions

  • Book coaching can include developmental editing, but at its core it's about guiding writers through mindset challenges and expectation management.

  • Clients approach book coaches at all stages of the book-writing journey, from initial idea to rough drafts to completed manuscrips

  • First-time book writers often face the fear of perfectionism, and their motivation can crash after the initial excitement.

  • Managing mindset and understanding the challenges inherent in writing is crucial for a successful book-writing journey.

Credits

This episode was edited and produced by Chérie Newman at Magpie Audio Productions. Theme music is "The Stone Mansion" by BlueDot Productions. 

Transcript

PREROLL QUOTE by Joelle Hann: When people get serious about writing a book and fulfilling this desire to have a book, that voice is really loud. The voice that says, "No one wants to hear from you, this is not a good idea. It's already been [00:00:30.207] done before. It's not interesting." All those variations and expressions.

HOST INTRO (Paul): Welcome to "The Book I Had To Write." This is the podcast where I talk to authors about their most compelling stories and why these journeys matter to anyone who wants to publish. I'm Paul Zakrzewski. [00:01:00.417] I'm a professional book coach, podcaster, and essayist. This show's been around for a year, and by far the most popular episode was one called "How to Write About Yourself and Others." This was an episode in which I interviewed author and editor Sari Botton, and we talked about the years it took for her to figure out how to write and publish a memoir about other people.

You know, I think one of the reasons that episode struck such a chord is because the fear of writing about other people is such a big deal for first-time authors, [00:01:30.186] but that, it turns out is only one of the many places where first-timers get lost.

As you'll hear on this episode, there's a big gap between the dream and the published book, and that sums up why I was really excited to talk with today's guest, book coach and publishing expert Joelle Hann.

Joelle got her start in publishing, but these days she's the Brooklyn Book Doctor, steering new and experienced writers through the thickets of book writing and publishing. We spent a lot of time talking about the places where first-timers get stuck, and [00:02:00.482] also about the powerful sense of discovery that happens when they complete their book-writing journey.

Joelle's also been a longtime poet and yoga teacher, and she draws from both those backgrounds in a successful freelance writing career. Her stories have appeared in a lot of places, including "The New York Times," "Poets and Writers," "Yoga Journal," and "NPR." Joelle was raised on the tiny Salt Spring Island off the west coast of British Columbia, but she's a longtime New Yorker. It was super hot the day we talked, so you'll get to hear some [00:02:30.807] authentic Brooklyn street noise from her open windows. I hope you enjoy the episode.

Paul Zakrzewski: Well, Joelle, welcome.

Joelle Hann: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.

Paul Zakrzewski: Well, before we get to talking about book coaching and the publishing industry, I'm kind of curious to hear about your own journey towards those things. So, I know that you've done a lot of writing in the past. I think you've written about yoga and fitness and wellness. [00:03:00.454] Can you tell me a bit about your writing journey?

Joelle Hann: So, I was that kid who was writing poems on the school bus, who took the creative writing prompts very seriously, and was winning competitions in high school. And that's what led me to apply for an MFA in poetry when I was in my early 20s. I had gone to McGill. I had been an active poet at McGill, [00:03:30.816] and then I applied to MFA programs. And actually, there's a funny story about that, I'll totally out myself. The Iowa Writer's Workshop is the creme de la creme, the place to go. And from McGill, I applied to a bunch of MFAs and I thought I was applying to the Writer's Workshop, but I was too shy to kind of ask all the right questions, and I actually applied to a different university in Iowa that had a creative writing program and was admitted, and then I realized it wasn't the one I thought I was applying to. I thought maybe I'm gonna wait a second [00:04:00.548] on that one.

So then I did get into NYU and I worked with Gene Valentine was my thesis advisor. Sharon Olds was there, Galway Kinnell was there, and yeah, I came to New York as a poet and left graduate school, worked in publishing, and was really thinking, how can I keep writing when I'm working in such a practical field? And that's when I took up yoga journalism because I was already studying yoga and enthusiastic about it. And I found that writing about yoga was [00:04:30.473] an amazing way to actually write about culture. And so I took a few classes here and there with Media Bistro that doesn't exist in that format anymore, and I learned the basics of journalism. And then I started writing about yoga culture. And that was a very rewarding experience after being a poet who, you know, you don't know if anyone's reading your work and you get paid maybe $10 for a poem to get published to suddenly, you know, being in "The New York Times" and [00:05:00.945] being the most viewed article that day was like a rush. You know, that was a nice reprieve from obscurity.

Paul Zakrzewski: You said a moment ago that writing about yoga was a way to kind of write about culture, and that kind of really struck me because I know one of the things that happens with book coach clients is the need for us to kind of help them take what sometimes can be a narrow subject and kind of help them see kind of the big picture. [00:05:30.830] The big why. Tell me how writing about yoga helped you kind of understand culture writ large.

Joelle Hann: That's such a great question. So what I've always loved about yoga is that you will be in the class with people you would never rub shoulders with. Like Willem Dafoe was often in my class, my first classes in New York, as an example, there are all kinds of New York characters would be in these classes. And something similar applies to writing about yoga culture. So, [00:06:00.493] the article I was just thinking about that I wrote for the Times was this sketch comedy artist who had done a total parody of yoga as a pickup scene and it was called Inappropriate Yoga Guy, and it was hilarious because it was so relatable and he was sketch comedy, so he went over the top.

But that was really a launching point into what are we doing when we're practicing yoga? Are we doing anything more meaningful than just moving our bodies around and sweating together [00:06:30.686] like we would do at a gym? Or is there some violation going on of the ultimate purpose of yoga or is it fine and can we laugh at ourselves? Is this really a big problem? So in that way, it was a lens to explore the commodification of an old system and what really are we doing? Like what happens when that enters the American or North American culture? Like what are we doing to that? So it [00:07:00.686] becomes a larger question, in this case, through the lens of sketch comedy and the parody that he was making of yoga culture.

Paul Zakrzewski: Talk to me about your transition into doing developmental editing and book coaching. Was there a particular moment or event that kind of pulled you into doing that?

Joelle Hann: So at Bedford/St. Martin's, I was a developmental editor. And, you know, they don't teach you how to do that. They just say, okay, it looks like you have generally the right skills. [00:07:30.258] Here's a book. There's no education. Your education is, you're a reader. You've been a student. In my case, I taught at NYU and at Rutgers. So we think you're gonna be good for the job. And I had to learn on the job. When I left publishing in 2012, I worked for quite a long time as a developmental editor and as a ghostwriter, and a collaborator. And [00:08:00.646] slowly I realized that it wasn't just that people needed guidance, it was that people needed mindset guidance. They needed expectation guidance.

In Bedford/St. Martin's, these are educators, these are people who in some way are used to producing materials, whether they're really good at deadlines or really not good at deadlines, but they're somehow used to producing things. Whereas out in the world, oftentimes people have a dream of being an author, [00:08:30.633] but there's a big gap between the dream and the published book, like what happens in there. So doing author education, but more than that, guiding people to understand their own creative processes, their own internal expectations, and holding space for them, providing a container for them to be able to work through those towards a final project was very different [00:09:00.611] than simply, not simply because it's involved, than being a developmental editor or a ghostwriter. So it evolved over time as I encountered people and their needs, realizing that being a book coach was something that people really wanted. That was an evolution.

Paul Zakrzewski: Talk to me because they are different things. Talk to me about the difference between developmental editing and book coaching as you see it.

Joelle Hann: Yeah, so they do have overlaps, of course. I'm gonna read people's work from my training as a developmental editor, [00:09:30.770] but I'm also as a book coach, going to be interacting with people and noticing where they're getting stuck, where they're having confusion, trying to break down their goals into bite-sized pieces so that they can move the needle. So I might look at some writing and think, okay, I think it needs this, this, this, and this. So if I was just approaching this from a developmental perspective, I would just get in there, change things, make comments, ask for more information, [00:10:00.739] say, you know, this is why I think this should be moved or deleted, whatever. But that can be very overwhelming for people and not always the best way to approach developing a project, especially when it's somewhat fresh for people. Writing a book is a new experience. So I might look at it and think, okay, it needs these five things, but we're gonna focus on one thing right now. I'm gonna give a lot of instruction in this direction, we're gonna talk about this and then [00:10:30.464] I'm gonna give light comments on a few of these other things so that they can trickle in, so that it's a process of titration. I'm trying to protect their creative process and their creative confidence because confidence is always at stake for writers. And get us to a point where there's enough resilience that we can really dig into the craft stuff. [00:10:55.730]

Paul Zakrzewski: So for the book coaching clients that you're seeing today, at what stage of the process are people coming to you at?

Joelle Hann: They're coming at all stages, I would say. I had a call today with someone who's fully written a manuscript and wanted to get an assessment, like, how is it doing? Is she on the right track? Should [00:11:30.224] she go ahead and self-publish? Should she pursue a traditional deal? I'm also working with someone who wrote a rough first draft of a memoir, just got it out there, which is a great way to start a memoir, and now wants to polish it up into something that is more than just a legacy for her family, but something that could be published. So it needs more of a shape, it needs more of a direction, there need to be stakes in there. I'm also gonna be working with a return client this summer where she just has the seed of an idea [00:12:00.019] and we're gonna work on her proposal. But she has at least two books out there already and has helped her mother and her sister write books as well. So she's not coming in with a lot of material, but she has a lot of experience. So there's really quite a range of people.

Paul Zakrzewski: You kind of alluded to this a little while ago, but mindset is obviously a huge piece of writing for all writers, but especially for, I think first-time book writers. And [00:12:30.649] I know speaking for myself, in my own writing journey and that I see in a lot of other people, you know, fear of perfectionism, which shows up as different forms of blocks is a big piece. Talk to me a bit about that. How are you seeing that show up in your clients? Let's start there.

Joelle Hann: This was a big surprise for me, which in itself is surprising. As a writer, I know this is part of the journey, but I think that it's so much a part of my experience as a poet that [00:13:00.901] you work in obscurity, you weather a lot of rejection, you fundamentally don't matter in society. Like you're not a lawyer, you know, so I was coming at it from that set of expectations of like, of course, it's gonna be a rough road, but my clients are not coming from that. Generally, they're coming from an excitement to get started and an expectation of success. So when they start to work on the book, and often it's something they've wanted to do for quite a [00:13:30.815] while and they say, okay, this is it. I'm serious, I'm gonna do it. And there is a big unleashing of excitement, and then what follows is a big crash.

And I think that is, I will put that down to just a human quality, which is when you get serious about the thing that you say you wanna do, there is energy. Energy goes out to find the resources, to understand how to do it, [00:14:00.181] to take a step in that direction you've always thought about. And then our inner resistance comes and says, hold on a second, maybe you should just hold this as an idea and not take this out there because we don't know what's gonna happen. If you actually express your ideas, if you actually tell your story, if you do whatever it is that feels dangerous for you, I mean dangerous is a big word, but it's a security risk for you, [00:14:30.686] then it's not gonna be good.

Paul Zakrzewski: So can you give me a couple of examples, an example or two of how people are showing up either in your academy or in one-on-one coaching and kind of how you guide them through this resistance?

Joelle Hann: Yes. It tends to show up in a few common ways. I've noticed that people will come into Book Proposal Academy, you know, we start on a certain date and we go for a certain amount of time. [00:15:00.257] And even in the first week, people will feel like they're behind. So this feeling of I should have done it sooner. This feeling of urgency, it's too late and that can mean different things from different people. That could mean I'm gonna get scooped or the time has passed for this moment, or by the time I get this done it won't be relevant. That kind of thing. That voice is really loud. The other way it can show up when people get serious about writing a book and fulfilling this desire to have a book [00:15:30.714] is the voice that says, "No one wants to hear from you. This is not a good idea. It's already been done before, it's not interesting." All those variations and expressions.

Paul Zakrzewski: Well, I was gonna say, I bet that your background being, I know that you have been a yoga instructor, and you're kind of steeped in that tradition and I'm expecting that some of the mindfulness techniques and things like that probably really come into play for you.

Joelle Hann: [00:16:00.289] Yes, that really helps a lot to have a framework of witnessing, of looking, of slowing down, and disidentifying from what we think and feel. Easier said than done though.

Paul Zakrzewski: Always.

Joelle Hann: Always. Which is why I think the somatic piece really helps a lot. If you can bring in the body, if you can bring in movement and move that maelstrom in your mind that's saying these things, [00:16:30.841] these very powerful reasons for why you should stop and bringing things into the body, into movement, into maybe color or sound. So taking things into a more tactile realm, it can really help to move out of that critical freeze space or flight and fight space, into a more open space where we can look a little bit more deeply at what might be behind that [00:17:00.666] urgency and is it something that we need to attend to right now.

Paul Zakrzewski: So just slowing things down.

Joelle Hann: Slowing things down, witnessing, shifting the awareness, and then coming back from a fresh place.

Paul Zakrzewski: When you and I were first communicating about setting up this interview, you wrote something interesting to me, I just want to get this quote. You wrote, "I'm viewing book coaching and book writing as more transformative processes these days, no matter what happens with the proposals and manuscripts that people write." [00:17:30.667] I'm wondering if you could tell me more about that.

Joelle Hann: Yeah, this is something I really love about working with people, especially in the coaching capacity because there will be moments where people have to face their inner demons and their inner demons will have their own expression. I have seen that the people who are able to face those demons, even if they run away or resist at first, that's totally fine. But if they can come back around and look at those [00:18:00.775] demons and move through them and get to another place, then they have so much more resilience and a much bigger chance of finishing their project because somehow in facing those demons could be the inner critic, could be inner gremlins, could be shame, any of those things, the ownership of their process comes back to them. And as we know, that's really crucial for going through the book creation and the book publishing process, is to stay in your ownership. So [00:18:30.909] I really am fully appreciating it when people are in that struggle and when they come to a new place because of that struggle. No one's gonna avoid it, I don't think. I think that there always comes a point of reckoning. It's the people who don't turn completely away as a result of the reckoning, who find a place of inner transformation that gives them that sense of ownership to go forward with.

Paul Zakrzewski: That's so cool. It's almost like the book is kind of a byproduct of this [00:19:00.723] really exciting inner process.

Joelle Hann: Exactly. And some people, I've had some clients get to the end of Book Proposal Academy, get an agent, finish their proposal, get an agent, gung ho, go forward, and instead they took a right turn and started a new business because they had asked themselves these questions that were actually broadly applicable to their life and their work and realized there was something that they really wanted to do and they needed to do that. [00:19:26.990]


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Paul Zakrzewski: It is interesting, I do feel like there is something specifically about doing a book that I think really gets to kind of some fundamental things about, you know, who we are as people and humans.

Joelle Hann: I agree.

Paul Zakrzewski: That feels like a good segue to ask you about Book Proposal Academy which is a program that you offer, it seems kind of like a flagship program of yours. Can you tell me more about it?

Joelle Hann: Yes, it's a great question. So it's a six-month program and we start with what is your [00:21:30.587] idea? Like, let's make this a real book idea. Like, let's start there. So it's a little bit like taking a hike up a steep mountain, like let's figure out where we're going, let's make the map of the table of contents, and then people get a little bit of a reprieve and they can write freely, do some messy writing, not free writing, but directed free writing, let's say, to express some of those ideas and get some words on the page and have that freedom to move. And then we go into the proposal and we think about the market, we think about [00:22:00.635] other books. There is an assignment where they go to a bookstore and think about where would their book exist in the bookstore, think about the market, all those things. So we have this internal time at the beginning of the program where there's thinking and there's writing and it's very private. So we try to safeguard creativity in that time.

And then there's a turn to the external where it's how do you exist in the marketplace? How does your book exist in the marketplace? If you're taking your creativity forward and you are [00:22:30.716] making yourself very juicy and appealing to agents and publishers, how would that look? Then there's revising and polishing and looking again and refining, and then there's, okay, go get an agent or go find your publisher. So that's the arc of the program. It ends up being a sneaky way to structure a book, to write sample chapters, to figure out what your message is, to figure out who you are as [00:23:00.268] an author, to understand that marketing these days is mostly on the shoulders of authors and less on the responsibility of publishers.

And it's an author boot camp, it helps people really understand, and I should say non-fiction writers, so self-help, wellness, research, memoir, that kind of book, helps people understand what it really means to be an author and they can ask themselves, well what am I doing? Do I wanna do this? How is this feeling? But I will say, [00:23:30.697] so there's a moment in Book Proposal Academy where people have to print out their draft of their proposal and it's really rough and it's not done. But they've done all kinds of work up to that point. Like lots of work. Thinking work, writing work, thinking about the market, like all kinds of things. They print it out, they hold it up, they take a picture and they post it in our group Slack. And it's just such a huge moment where they realize, oh my gosh, I have a title, I have chapters, I have a structure, I have like, wow, I got here.

Paul Zakrzewski: [00:24:00.249] It's awesome. Yeah.

Joelle Hann: And from that place it's so great, it's so great. It's so like, you did it, you did it, it's so great. Then you can really look at things from this perspective of like, okay, now I know a lot more about who I am, what I'm doing, where I'm doing it, why it matters. And I have a chance now to think again about, okay, so what do I wanna do with this?

Paul Zakrzewski: Talk to me a bit about platform. Is that something that you feel, like you need to address in the [00:24:30.751] Proposal Academy? Where are people at with that?

Joelle Hann: Yeah, platform is a big part of it. It's a big part of a proposal. And I think it's a big part of author education these days because no matter which avenue you're going down, you're going to be thinking about how do I get my book into readers' hands? Where are my readers? How do I reach them? How can I move copies? So that's a very practical way of thinking about books that can feel cold to people [00:25:00.456] who are thinking, I don't wanna think about that at all. I'm a writer, I have ideas, I have a story to tell, I don't wanna think about strategy at all. But the way that the publishing world is now and the options that we have for publishing mean that at some point you're gonna be thinking about that.

You're gonna be thinking, I want people to read my book. I want it to be out in the world and making a difference. I don't wanna sink to the bottom of Amazon, never to be found again. So it is something that we address. [00:25:30.899] I have seen people go kind of one or two directions with it. Usually, there's trepidation for everybody. And then there can be a kind of confidence that comes when they realize that they're already reaching people in some capacity or they're actually really passionate about reaching people, like being a speaker or doing events with people, or thinking like, wow, this could really reach a wider audience, I just haven't thought about it in that way. That's one thing that can happen. That's the best-case scenario.

And the other thing [00:26:00.032] that can happen is just the resistance and the kind of dread of putting ourselves out in public in a bigger way and organizing a sustained campaign to build awareness about the book. So I do think that the resistance grows in isolation and that once you get the first few hits of people saying, that's a fascinating idea, you start to realize that platform and "marketing" is talking to your readers. And [00:26:30.653] when you talk to your readers, there's an exchange, so it's no longer a one-way street. You're not forcing anything on anyone. And it starts to feel like, this is what I want for my book. I do want people to read it, I want it to reach people. It's a big moment.

Paul Zakrzewski: I'm glad you said that about platform and marketing because I'm recalling there was a story in "The New York Times" a year or two ago about how social media metrics, which I think people [00:27:00.336] publishing had previously relied on as like the beyond end all of platform. It wasn't actually translating to real book sales. And I think sometimes when people hear platform, they think, you know, social media, but it's so much more than that.

Joelle Hann: It's so true. I think that's the fear. The fear is now I have to be big on Instagram. I don't even know how to use Instagram. I don't wanna do that. And it really doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to be social media. And you're right, [00:27:30.516] social media numbers don't necessarily mean book sales. I would say the one exception for that is BookTok, the TikTok channel called BookTok.

Paul Zakrzewski: You know, given both your background and also your location in New York, I think of you as [00:28:00.144] a book coach who's, you know, really tied into traditional publishing, Big 5 [SP] publishing, New York publishing. How do you feel like that industry has changed in the time that you've been either working in it or a coach?

Joelle Hann: Yeah, that's a great question. It's a big question. And I actually remember when platform became something that publishers were looking for. It was probably 15 years ago or so, 15, 20 years ago, it became something [00:28:30.353] that was a crucial element. There's so much going on in publishing, we're really at a tipping point. So...

Paul Zakrzewski: And what is that tipping point?

Joelle Hann: Yeah, so I think the tipping point is that partly because of COVID, or the pandemic, and partly because of the increasing burden on the Big 5 to attract and publish wild bestsellers like say Michelle Obama, for example. They need Michelle Obamas to meet their bottom line. [00:29:00.551] So they are hungry for books like that. They need books like that to stay sustainable. And if you have a model that prioritizes big celebrity books and needs them to make the bottom line, you're not necessarily, and I won't say this as a blanket statement, but that's not necessarily allowing room for people who are just getting started or maybe they need one or two books to really find their pace and mature, which is what used to be possible in publishing. [00:29:30.865] It used to be that you wrote and published your first book and you had time to mature and you maybe worked with the same agent or the same editor over that period of time as you came into your own. But now there's a lot of shifting around within the staffing of the Big 5. There's a lot of pressure on bottom line.

Editors can love a book and think it's phenomenal and still not be able to sign it because they don't have what they call a vision for the book, which usually means they can't quite see directly [00:30:00.625] how it'll turn into big sales. And I think that's heartbreaking for agents as well as editors. And of course, for authors it just means that there's not as much room as there used to be for new people to come in and have a place in it. Now that said, people are still getting book deals, my clients are still getting book deals, but it can take more work, it can take more attention to niche, and platform, and networking, and [00:30:30.356] persistence. So it's not impossible, but there's less to go around. Editors and agents are really under a lot of pressure from the backlog of the pandemic and from this burden of sales. So we're in a cooker for traditional publishing.

Paul Zakrzewski: Can you remind listeners how many queries or proposals are agents seeing, say, per day? I think people are always shocked by this number.

Joelle Hann: I actually don't know like what the ballpark number [00:31:00.390] is, but I did read someone saying, you know, generally on Twitter going through my inbox, I have 700 emails, so if you emailed me, don't think that I'm ignoring you personally. I'm just underwater. Do you know what the number is? Is there a general number?

Paul Zakrzewski: I remember hearing from someone else that agents can get something like 100 queries a day. I think it seems something crazy to me. And I think that was like a post-pandemic. [00:31:30.675] Yeah, people just had more time, I guess, to work on their...

Joelle Hann: Yes, everybody worked on their books.

Paul Zakrzewski: So if people wanna find out more about the Book Proposal Academy and about your services generally, how do people find you?

Joelle Hann: Yeah, so I have a website, brooklynbookdoctor.com. I'm also on Instagram, @BrooklynBookDoctor as well. And I'm on LinkedIn as Joelle Hann. So all of those places, I'm there, [00:32:00.826] I'm watching, I'm active. My inbox is a little crazy, but I do get back to everybody. And Book Proposal Academy information is on there as well. The application is open, it's open right now, but we're gonna start in September. So for anyone who is thinking, yeah, I do wanna do that, but I got summer plans and I need to think a little bit, people can go ahead and apply and we can have a conversation early. It's no need to apply close to the deadline.

Paul Zakrzewski: Well, [00:32:30.668] Joelle, I want to thank you so much for your time today. It's been a really terrific conversation. I've learned a lot. Thank you.

Joelle Hann: Oh, thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much.

Paul Zakrzewski: You've been listening to my interview with the Brooklyn Book Coach, Joelle Hann. I'm Paul Zakrzewski. If you enjoyed the show, then I hope you'll subscribe to it. I'm always grateful for reviews and for sharing the show with friends.

To read a full transcript [00:33:00.810] of this in every episode, sign up at thebookihadtowrite.com/subscribe. And if you're working on your own book you have to write or you wanna get started, maybe I can help. I love supporting experienced authors with expert advice and focused coaching. I help writers craft book drafts, agent pitches, book proposals, and more.

Find out more about me and my coaching at thebookihadtowrite.com/coaching. [00:33:30.703] That's thebookihadtowrite.com/coaching. And thanks again for listening.

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